Broil King Keg Forum

Broil King Keg, Big Steel Keg and Bubba Keg Grills => Keg Mods => Topic started by: kite on July 06, 2016, 10:35:25 AM



Title: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: kite on July 06, 2016, 10:35:25 AM
I am glad the forum is back up!

I have a 5000 and the ash tray design has some issues. I actually generally like the design, I can't say it is an improvement as I have not used a slider, it is what I have and am becoming used to.

I tried to use red high heat silicone caulking to solve this issue, it was not super successful. I pull it all off and tried an other approach. I bought a cheap silicone baking sheet and cut it into 6 cm strips. (2 1/4 inches basically) and for simplicity (and lazyness) I held the strips together with a staples. I made it about 3 cm (an 1 inch and 1/8 ish) shorter than the circumferance around the ash tray. The silicone I have is elastic so it easily wraps around with a bit of tension. Think a large rubber band made of heat resistant silicone.

(http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv19/dgachisholm/BKK/File%202016-07-06%201%2031%2009%20PM_zpsuuhu8hqd.jpeg) (http://s665.photobucket.com/user/dgachisholm/media/BKK/File%202016-07-06%201%2031%2009%20PM_zpsuuhu8hqd.jpeg.html)

Installed on my 5000.
(http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv19/dgachisholm/BKK/File%202016-07-06%202%2004%2057%20PM_zpsll88yvkk.jpeg) (http://s665.photobucket.com/user/dgachisholm/media/BKK/File%202016-07-06%202%2004%2057%20PM_zpsll88yvkk.jpeg.html)

Some may have seen my thermal images I have before and after thermal shots
Before
(http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv19/dgachisholm/BKK/IMG_7609_zpsfysy1le2.jpg) (http://s665.photobucket.com/user/dgachisholm/media/BKK/IMG_7609_zpsfysy1le2.jpg.html)

After
(http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv19/dgachisholm/BKK/File%202016-07-06%201%2028%2058%20PM_zpsnnssno6r.jpeg) (http://s665.photobucket.com/user/dgachisholm/media/BKK/File%202016-07-06%201%2028%2058%20PM_zpsnnssno6r.jpeg.html)
It looks like an improvement to me.


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: ModernMan on July 06, 2016, 12:25:13 PM
Good job!

Seems like no matter how low I used to close off my botton damper, the 5000's temperature wanted to climb slowly... Then fire would go out if bottom vent set to much less than :(

Your experiment , coupled with thermal images, shows there's a source of air/02 intake around the perimeter of yhe dust/ash tray - which contributes to feedinv the fire, depending on the tilt or fit of the tray.

I'll try something similar when I get a chance - based on your design. Thanks.

Still keeping fingers crossed however, that OMC Keg engineers will find a retro-fit, more aesthetic & durable solution.
;-)



Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: kite on July 07, 2016, 07:55:43 AM
Modern, I agree,
 I too feel there is air leaking in from the tray seal. When I close it up to force the fire to die, I still get smoke from the ash tray toggles, in my case I had issues with the fire burning for some time after all the vents were closed, I no longer have this problem. For my purposes I believe the band is a reasonable solution. Simple, low cost and still allows the function of the design to work.

I don't think staples are the right solution. They are a temporary prototype method. I am looking at glue or adhesive methods to replace the staples. I'll keep you all posted when I find something.


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: ModernMan on July 07, 2016, 10:35:18 AM
Agreed.
Mine also takes very long to cool down following a 500-600F pizza bake, generally about 5-6 hours - at least.


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: kite on July 07, 2016, 01:21:44 PM
Mine used too as well. The last cook was a steak, 650ºF ish and it dropped to 100ºF in 3 hours or so. I •Think• that is just a result of insulation, I believe it stopped burning in 30-40 min.


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: smokey on July 08, 2016, 02:22:06 PM
Mine used too as well. The last cook was a steak, 650ºF ish and it dropped to 100ºF in 3 hours or so. I •Think• that is just a result of insulation, I believe it stopped burning in 30-40 min.

You are probably right.
You can drop the temp (and still keep the fire going) by closing the vents, opening the keg lid every five minutes a few times, then open the vents a very small amount.  Opening the lid lets some air in so the coals gasp for air while the heat slips away,  like a drowning man gasping seeing his life slowly slip away, only to go under again....

The fire will die out in most places. Heat escapes when the lid is open.


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: kite on July 13, 2016, 11:32:50 AM
Hmm I have ordered something that may work in place of staples. https://sugru.com/ they claim it is rated to 180ºC (356ºF) I know that is not very high however the tray does not seem to become really hot under 100ºC in my experience. It should hold up... unless there is thermal blocking then it likely will fail. I guess it is worth a shot. It may not stick silicone at all. I'll report back once it arrives.


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: ModernMan on July 14, 2016, 06:36:54 AM
Thanks kite!


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: kite on July 14, 2016, 11:19:23 AM
modern with luck the goo will be here tomorrow, and I will some sense over the weekend.


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: Baines11 on July 22, 2016, 03:02:28 AM
Inquiring minds want to know if the new solution worked?


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: kite on July 24, 2016, 10:33:14 AM
The band is working quite well there is a little wisp from the toggles and from the top vent between the two layers but that seems to be it. I have still not tried the goop to hold the silicone bits together but soon.


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: kite on August 02, 2016, 02:47:44 PM
Update I have used the Sugru to 'glue' the sections together. It has altered the elastic and flexibility at the seams. I it is better than being stabbed by staples but i am not sure it is an over all improvement just solved one issue but created another. I am still working on a better one.


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: ModernMan on August 02, 2016, 07:56:27 PM
Thanks for the update kite.

I wonder if a large, quasi- industrial ruber band would essentailly offer a similar fix, without melting?
If I find one that fits I'll report back


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: kite on August 03, 2016, 09:57:43 AM
Natural rubber gives up around 100ºC it might work, I looked into theraband but it burns. I have notion that cutting a silicone baking sheet long ways and short and actually 'place' the over laps. I cut on the width and the over laps (3) end up no matter what one is on a corner. The sugru holds up well so far (pizza cook today...) I also have some versamold I maybe able to make a whole one piece strap from it. I know this is slow but I don't like to make a suggestion with detailed instructions until I am certain it will work.


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: smokey on August 03, 2016, 12:49:16 PM
try this

https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-80050-Silicone-Adhesive-Sealant/dp/B0002UEPVI
or this
https://www.amazon.com/BLACK-Grade-adhesive-smoker-silicon/dp/B00NU6QDPC

Mixed with this
https://www.amazon.com/Nomex-High-gasket-smoker-stick/dp/B013GJBH8K


or if you really are concerned about over 400

https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-81160-High-Temp-Silicone-Gasket/dp/B0002UEN1A

Temperature range of -65F to 650F intermittent


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: ModernMan on August 03, 2016, 01:53:51 PM
Smokey, thanks for your suggestion
Ive already sealed the 5000 and iirc, so has kite.
The removable drawer requires a somewht diffrent approach.
If not mistaken, kite's trying to find a glue/adjesive that specifically will bond a silicone piece to another, so as to form a continuous band/ loop.
Silicone sealants are generally not strong enough to bond the ends of a silicon baking sheet together, which will then be stretched.


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: kite on August 04, 2016, 11:58:02 AM
Exactly modern.

I first tried a high heat silicone it failed to bond, and tried a gasket maker that sort of bonded but started to fail when pulled at. For myself I am fairly well convinced the best method is some kind of elastic material in a band. The issue is it does get hot (not really hot but too hot to hold) and ideally it would be a single continuous band. A really wide large elastic band would be perfect, I just don't know if it would stand up to the temperature and I personally have enough reservations I would not want to try (burning rubber dripping and the mess that would make...)

So far the sugru is holding ok not as well as I would like but ok. It is working ok and for me good enough for now. I however can see how to improve it so before I post detailed instructions I hope to have a improved version first. Yes I am OCD and a perfectionist.


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: smokey on August 04, 2016, 06:54:10 PM
I have no idea on how the 5000 drawer looks or even works. Never seen one.  :)
So I might not be recommending the right material.

I was thinking a bead of RTV not to attach the band, but to create a seal.

I don't really understand, the mechanics of the ash tray but it's fun thinking up ways to fix this.
This is similar to the beginnings of this forum, there was no support, nobody knew if the Keg was going to survive, there were no such things as ready made diffusors. Replacement parts were non existent, as was service.

Some pretty ingenious solutions  :)

For example, we figured out how to make the pitmaster IQ work, John later added adjustable vents.
I put a port with a ball valve, I can restrict airflow with the valve, Vindi used a washer in the hose.
Some people bitched and moaned, said that the IQ's were defective, I felt sorry for John. I think I bought one of the first ones...

Ranbeaux made straps to put diffusors of all kinds, stones cast iron, and started selling them. Never seen nothing like them in stores.

Then there were all the ideas to seal the bottom vent, and the top vent, or replacement lid seals, ways to light the lump.

Very few people really knew about Kamados. Now wherever they sell grills the have one.


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: smokey on August 04, 2016, 06:58:30 PM
Exactly modern.

 For myself I am fairly well convinced the best method is some kind of elastic material in a band. The issue is it does get hot (not really hot but too hot to hold) and ideally it would be a single continuous band. A really wide large elastic band would be perfect,

So how about a band of similar material used for the lid seal (only thinner)?
You could use the same type of staple used by the lid seal...

I wish I could swing by your house with a six pack, we could spend hours talking about this...


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: kite on August 04, 2016, 09:26:51 PM
You would be welcome. Yes certainly could, I am the type I'd show up with a big box of things to sit and fiddle with.
I shot this a while back so it isn't quite the best for what it looks like.
This is where the tray and vent part side into. You can see the remains of my first gasket, where I tried to add a thin bead to the body let it cure and then use that as a gasket. It didn't seal well and failed to stick in a couple of spots.
(http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv19/dgachisholm/BKK/IMG_7649_zpsgwe8ekyk.jpg) (http://s665.photobucket.com/user/dgachisholm/media/BKK/IMG_7649_zpsgwe8ekyk.jpg.html)

The end of the tray showing the vent. I like the vent design it has a lot of elegance. I believe there is an old post speaking about filing notches in the top lid it looks like someone was watching.
(http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv19/dgachisholm/BKK/File%202016-07-06%201%2024%2038%20PM_zpslxrn5qel.jpeg) (http://s665.photobucket.com/user/dgachisholm/media/BKK/File%202016-07-06%201%2024%2038%20PM_zpslxrn5qel.jpeg.html)

There is very little play if you plan on having a gasket, as you add more it starts becoming harder to lock the tray in and places more strain on the toggles. The toggles are part of the issue I think if they were more positive leaking might be reduced. Having something like a bolt wing nut is fiddley to open and close. I thought that would be clunky. I figured that if sealing between the bay on the Keg body and the face plate of the tray was hard and created other issues that sealing the outside would work, less efficient a location but good enough. That is where I got to where I am.

It is now a matter of finding the best way to build something and with a reasonable chance of success for others and with materials that are available and not overly expensive.


Title: Re:
Post by: smokey on August 08, 2016, 03:39:22 AM
Hmm I have an idea,  I'll take a picture when it's daylight

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: ModernMan on August 08, 2016, 06:29:18 AM
Kite
I can vouch re. those toggles being part of the issue.
One of mine arrived broken when i received the Keg ladt year.
They do indeed feel small n flimsy (in relation to the size/weight/bulk of the tray) and their spring is weak ... so any mod which puts more strain on those toggles may be asking for trouble


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: smokey on August 08, 2016, 09:19:38 AM
Before my keg I had an offset.
It was leaky and difficult to control temp.  I guess you could call it an ash drawer.

Maybe this could give you an idea...

I used some tabs and more importantly a camber lock that I bought at a woodworking store. (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160808/d41600e1d452f73233ee7a33ef65c038.jpg)

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: kite on August 08, 2016, 07:03:08 PM
Smokey Cambers is a good though. A bunch of futzing about to figure how to fit them.

Modern the toggles is a dumb system, there must be a better alternative I am at a loss to think of one. I have a rule for myself, Criticize when you have an alternative not before. I have a hard time blaming the designers as I can't think of a better way. Frigging wing nuts...


Title: Re: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: smokey on August 10, 2016, 12:39:47 AM
Smokey Cambers is a good though. A bunch of futzing about to figure how to fit them.

Modern the toggles is a dumb system, there must be a better alternative I am at a loss to think of one. I have a rule for myself, Criticize when you have an alternative not before. I have a hard time blaming the designers as I can't think of a better way. Frigging wing nuts...
I thread it in,  my solution is primatve but I don't recommend for your application.
To use cambers you could do several things,  but I think a bar that goes over the drawer would work. The camber could force pressure between the bar and the drawer.

Or there are these other types of clamps
Look this up
POWERTEC 20301 Horizontal Quick-Release Toggle Clamp, 500 lbs Capacity, 225D

Though I think that using the two existing toggles could be replaced by threaded rod,  and cambers

Problem is that you would have to mess with unscrewing the cambers

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: ModernMan on August 10, 2016, 02:25:01 PM
Thanks Smoke, thanks kite - for your brainstorming to help find a solution.

BSK engineers likely are thanking you both also!
:)


Title: Re: BKK 5000 sealing band
Post by: smokey on August 10, 2016, 03:58:17 PM
Thanks Smoke, thanks kite - for your brainstorming to help find a solution.

BSK engineers likely are thanking you both also!
:)
Hey Homid,

Actually they don't give a hoot.  >:(
Bottom vent issues were a key factor in initial sales of the keg being impacted, the keg had a bad rap for not being able to control temps. What do they do? Bring back leaky vents? Duuh...

I've seen so many ideas..... For one having a port. That's the big advantage that the keg has over the ceramics.
You could even hook up a Shop Vac  and clean the ashes, put a Pitmaster, or a cold smoker attachment.

 IMHO They only took the ideas that really did not seem to understand the keg very well. 
There was one time they had a poll as to what features would be good to have.

At the beginning of the Keg Forum we had Bubba Ricky Bobby, he was an industrial engineer, and was actively collecting feedback. I suspect he play a key role in the design and was looking for improvements.